How long does it take to reach the most Earth-like planet? Fall through the ground: how long will it take?
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One traveler from Britain Rosie Swale-Pope I was able to complete a round-the-world marathon alone. It took her 1789 days to walk around the entire earth and 53 pairs of shoes. It is known in many parts of our planet.
She has two adult children and decided to realize her idea of traveling around the world for charitable reasons. Her goal is to raise funds for one of the orphanages in Russia and a cancer center in Britain.
She was filled with incredible joy; she was able to learn so many interesting things about the people she met, about animals and everything related to nature.
But the most important thing is that she was able to discover a lot of new things about herself.
The difficulties encountered along the way could not force her to retreat and complete her journey.
Once, having encountered a pack of wolves in Siberia, the wolves did not tear her to pieces, but followed her for several days, not trying to attack, as if seeing her off and watching her.
People were no less interesting than animals. Imagine that a man with an ax is running after you.
How would you feel? And what would you do? It was just such a man who ran after Rosie, but when he caught up, it turned out that he did not want to scare the traveler at all. It’s just that he was a woodcutter, and the ax was his working tool, and he ran after Rosie to give her a crust of bread. After all, she was probably hungry.
Rosie was greeted in Alaska with an unusual surprise. The children themselves sewed a flag for her and named a star after her, which they always find in the starry sky when remembering Rosie.
When she returned home, she immortalized the last step that brought her home. At the entrance there is a slab with imprints of Rosie's first and last step. About 32,000 km separate these stops.
Rosie believes that the most valuable gift in life is the opportunity to do what you really want. Therefore, always go towards your dream and then you will be able to say at the end of the road that you are a happy person.
Let's imagine that a global catastrophe has occurred and we are forced to liberate the earth. How long will it take to get to the most Earth-like planet we've discovered so far?
For starters, the most Earth-like planet discovered is Kepler 452b. We know about this planet thanks to the Kepler space telescope, launched in March 2009, which has been hunting for planets for the past 5 years. Kepler 452 is a sun-like star hurtling through space 1,400 light-years from Earth. It's worth noting that this star has the same surface temperature as our sun and almost the same energy output.
Overall, both the sun and Kepler 452 are G-type yellow dwarfs. This means that Kepler 452's habitable zone (the region around the star in which liquid water could theoretically exist) is almost identical to the sun's. And what’s interesting is that in this zone a planet revolves around this star, the path of which is almost identical to Earth’s, Kepler 452b. This planet occupies almost the same place as the earth in the solar system.
It follows that the length of the year on this planet is almost identical to ours, and the amount of energy that the planet receives is strikingly similar to what the earth receives. Kepler 452b completes its orbit in 385 days and receives only 10% more energy than Earth.
Scientists can't measure Kepler 452b's mass directly, but conclusions based on modeling indicate the planet is only five times as massive as Earth (almost 60% more). This strongly suggests that this solid-state world is similar to ours, which is very good (after all, we don’t yet have the technology to live on gas giants. In addition, the gravity will be twice that of Earth. This can significantly complicate life on the planet, but in general it does not make living impossible (if only we can get there.
A little math.
First, let's define what a light year is. This is the distance that light can travel in one year (obviously, right? Light travels on the order of a billion kilometers per hour. This means that in a year light travels 9.5 trillion kilometers. 1400 light years is approximately 13.3 quadrillion kilometers Thus, if we launched our fastest probe, New Horizons, which is currently traveling at 50,000 km/h, it would take 26 million years to reach its new destination.
By this point, all life on our planet will most likely become extinct.
By comparison, modern humans evolved approximately 200,000 years ago. We left Africa, at the earliest, 130,000 years ago. These numbers are nowhere near the 26 million years it will take us to reach Kepler 452b.
But what if we develop better technology? Will we ever be able to fly faster?
In fact, it won't get much better. Even if we travel at the speed of light (the fastest possible speed at the moment), it will take us 1400 years to reach the desired planet. If our ancestors had gone to this world, they would have had to set out in 615 AD to get there by today.
Of course, traveling at that speed means time dilation comes into play. Thus, those on the ship will feel as if only a century has passed. But for the universe (and everyone else in it), the flight will take 1,400 years. Ultimately, when our settlers arrive at their destination, the solar system, if not the universe, will change significantly.
Of course, there are other planets we can go to, some of them much closer. Alpha Centauri Bb, which is considered the closest planet to earth outside our solar system, for example. It should orbit Alpha Centauri B, although this is not yet certain. And yet, if we assume its presence, it is located 4.37 light years from earth. Traveling at the speed of light, we would get there in just over four years.
True, even if it is there, we are unlikely to want to visit it, since the planet is located very close to the parent star. It completes the orbit in 3 days and 5 hours. The planet is unbearably hot and cannot support any kind of life.
So let's just hope that there won't be a global catastrophe that could doom our solar system. At least we must settle on time.
KoCMoHaBT 07-10-2013 12:48
KoCMoHaBT 07-10-2013 12:56
From the Cat theme
1 ha - 1 ewe (goat). This is full annual provision: both mowing and pasture. Information on the Oleninsky district of the Tver region, received from practitioners. I don't think it's different in other areas.
That is, for example, 20 hectares is the full content of about 14 ewes (goats). Plus fattening lambs (goats). The birth rate is approximately 1.5 per queen. Half are eggs, half are lambs. It is advisable to sell the bright one. It turns out that if you cut lambs, then this is a maximum of 200 kg of meat per year, approximately 0.5 kg per day. Plus milk if they are goats (or a little milk if they are sheep).
Shantor2 07-10-2013 13:00
some kind of spherical horse in a vacuum.
If there is no trade, then there are no neighbors. Then who will forbid you to go somewhere? Use everything around you. If there are any other reasons, then you most likely will not have time for farming. Crazy intro..
You still won’t be able to manually process more than 5 hectares, let alone two.
And if there are tools and equipment, then there are other people who help maintain it all. And that means trade.
fencer_al 07-10-2013 13:00
How much land do you need to survive self-sufficiently, that is, to provide food and clothing for a family of... well, say, 5 people? The introductory conditions are no trade (no trade at all) and no foreign land (it is forbidden to graze goats in no-man's ravines).
Immediate questions:
victor01 07-10-2013 13:04
If you raise sheep, you don’t need to process anything. But you need a shepherd or a paddock for hectares, a shed and food for six months of winter...
Agriculture in the Middle Zone is not guaranteed at all...
KoCMoHaBT 07-10-2013 13:17
1. Terrain? Middle zone, polar region, black soil?)
Middle lane.
quote: Originally posted by fencer_al:
2. Material resources? fertilizers, land cultivation products.
We cross out fertilizers. Everything else is there. Just EVERYTHING. If you want a tractor, you will have a tractor, but without fuel (you can’t trade).
quote: Originally posted by fencer_al:
3.Usage? Goats, potatoes, rye, buckwheat?) Greenhouses?)
quote: Originally posted by fencer_al:
4. Terrain? By default we consider everything to be plain?
Yes, the plain of the middle zone. Around there is a forest, copses, a river and a swamp (for variety).
quote: Originally posted by Shantor2:
If there is no trade, then there are no neighbors. Then who will forbid you to go somewhere? Use everything around you.
Firstly, the neighbors have nothing to do with trade at all.
Secondly, there are neighbors, but they are angry. They shoot to kill for trying to enter their area.
Big Max 07-10-2013 13:29
quote: Originally posted by fencer_al:
Immediate questions:
1. Terrain? Middle zone, polar region, black soil?)
2. Material resources? fertilizers, land cultivation products.
3.Usage? Goats, potatoes, rye, buckwheat?) Greenhouses?)
4. Terrain? By default we consider everything to be plain?
The agricultural worker will add another 100 questions, including about reservoirs and about the previous use of the land (if the Chinese grew cucumbers on it, then such land is not needed for nothing).
quote: Originally posted by KoCMoHaBT:
Any use. The goal is unlimited self-sufficiency.
Should hunting grounds be counted too?
KoCMoHaBT 07-10-2013 13:30
Damn, where did the state come from in the introduction? 5 families, 5 fields in the middle of a dense forest - already, damn it, a state. Already, damn it, Korovans are robbed and attacked.
There is no state. All neighbors are equally provided with everything they need.
To hell with you, marketers - let the trade be within the boundaries of the neighbors. Natural exchange, damn it.
KoCMoHaBT 07-10-2013 13:31
That is, if I want to shake a hazel tree or pick berries/mushrooms, do I also need to count hectares of forest?
Should hunting grounds be counted too?
Well, that would be good.
Big Max 07-10-2013 13:34
quote: Originally posted by KoCMoHaBT:
Well, that would be good.
Then 150 hectares...
quote: Originally posted by KoCMoHaBT:
5 fields in the middle of a dense forest
So is the forest ours or not?
alex_alpha 07-10-2013 13:36
Dumb topic. You can graze your herd anywhere (except for fields with agricultural crops, of course). Especially goats - they are generally unpretentious.
KoCMoHaBT 07-10-2013 13:38
From the Cat theme
If you turn to historical sources (quickly look at Google), you can find out that, for example, soldiers in Tsarist Russia under Emperor Paul were given 15 dessiatines of land, that is = 16 hectares, to set up a farm (after serving). This is the starting point for all sorts of “hermits” who dream of living naturally from their own land. (Forest, heating and crafts - separately).
There was one more problem - stripes. The land was allocated by a community that tried to allocate land of equal quality. As a result, the peasant had a shitty cloud of small plots at a great distance from his house. And he simply did not have time to process this bunch of plots.
KoCMoHaBT 07-10-2013 13:40
quote: Originally posted by Big Max:
So is the forest ours or not?
The surrounding forest is not ours at all. It is dense and impenetrable. Our forest is the one within the radius where five more families hang around, designed to prevent you from entering other people’s lands. Crap.
victor01 07-10-2013 13:43
quote: Originally posted by KoCMoHaBT:
From the Cat theme15 desiatinas is a lot. But on the other hand, women did not inherit property, so the soldier, after 25 years of service, was an eligible bachelor.
10 dessiatines is the field of the average peasant, 8 dessiatines is the field of the poor.
There was one more problem - stripes. The land was allocated by a community that tried to allocate land of equal quality. As a result, the peasant had a shitty cloud of small plots at a great distance from his house. And he simply did not have time to process this bunch of plots.
Dear, do you not see any weakness in your reasoning?
You are talking about the times when THERE WAS POWER and was strong enough so that the peasants did not expect raids from all sides. Otherwise (as Kamrad correctly noted) the power supply and the spherical horse...
KoCMoHaBT 07-10-2013 13:49
You are talking about the times when THERE WAS POWER and was strong enough so that the peasants did not expect raids from all sides.
The Lykov family, for example.
It is required to evaluate the minimum plot of land for a full-fledged subsistence economy for the indefinite survival of the family.
victor01 07-10-2013 13:53
quote: Originally posted by KoCMoHaBT:
Once again - a dense forest. The authorities take five hours to get to you by helicopter. The robbers of the Korovans will never get there. But you won’t be able to get out of there either.
The Lykov family, for example.
It is required to evaluate the minimum plot of land for a full-fledged subsistence economy for the indefinite survival of the family.
Check with the water department about time and disasters. That is, is there some kind of power or not?
Do we pay rent/tax or not?
Did the Lykov family consist of 3 people (later they gave birth)?
And you have 5 families...
KoCMoHaBT 07-10-2013 14:17
quote: Originally posted by victor01:
Do we pay rent/tax or not?
If we are just hiding in the forest, then from whom (from what)?
We don’t pay rent, we don’t pay taxes. In the forest we hide from the sodomite aliens who live in the dense forest.
victor01 07-10-2013 14:35
quote: Originally posted by KoCMoHaBT:
We don’t pay rent, we don’t pay taxes. In the forest we hide from the sodomite aliens who live in the dense forest.
Alternatively, a commune where everyone is required to be a warrior? This is the most rational.
Over time, the number of parasites will grow - pregnant women, young children, the sick/wounded, the elderly...
You need to put one parasite per worker/warrior (at least), and the number of workers/warriors should be slightly excessive - someone is always on guard in a hostile environment, someone is on a sortie, someone is working, someone is resting from the night watches?
There will be a considerable community, 5 families may not be enough...
Arjuna 07-10-2013 14:38
quote: Originally posted by KoCMoHaBT:A family (of workers) must also be attached to this land. Men's hands, more than one pair. There was no such thing - a son was born, grew up, got married, and immediately left to manage his own separate hectares. If a strong family (several adult sons with their wives and their children) fell apart, the entire household could collapse. There simply weren’t enough workers. Servicing 10 hectares is not a sheep sneezing.
From the Cat theme15 desiatinas is a lot. But on the other hand, women did not inherit property, so the soldier, after 25 years of service, was an eligible bachelor.
10 dessiatines is the field of the average peasant, 8 dessiatines is the field of the poor.
Arjuna 07-10-2013 14:48
Strictly speaking, what else can you think of that is smart with such calculations, if not to take what already existed and fed people years ago? 10-15 hectares per family. Plus (possibly) some kind of separate grazing if the farm is more meat and dairy than grain. Here you also need to plant hemp (or flax, if you want drug control). Do you need to sew clothes, not just wool (lamb)? Horse, cow... pig. Bees. All everyday life is our own (wax candles, linen wick, soap, etc.) Tools, for example, are old-fashioned (saws, axes, all sorts of chisels)... Rolling pins, combs, spinning wheels, ... In general, it’s still a lot of fun . But they once lived. In winter - for extra work, some kind of waste craft (for salt, matches, glass, knives-saws, cast-iron saucepans, beads-ribbons for women)... Lyapota!
HarryA 07-10-2013 14:49
quote: The authorities take five hours to get to you by helicopter.
The question is not how long it takes to get there.
Russia is big, and they fled to the Don and beyond the Urals, but when the authorities were in an urge to get them both here and there, when there were no helicopters or steam locomotives.
Roma777 07-10-2013 14:52
At the beginning of the 17th century, when people lived by subsistence farming, in the Wild Field the Cossacks of the Great Sovereigns, for example, were given 20 chety in three fields. The so-called land salary. This is approximately 30 hectares. The actual allotment was usually less. The Cossack and his family fed from this land. In addition, the government paid a small amount (cash salary). Payments were extremely irregular. This money can not be taken into account, the amount is extremely small, and it was spent on armament. In addition, a forest was allocated to the unit and the right to use the river was given.
In addition to working on his land, the Cossack carried out military service and worked on state fields and state construction sites.
So, I think, a plot of 20-30 hectares is enough for your purposes. Enough for planting and livestock. But surpluses, if there are any, will be minimal. If you want to sell something externally, it’s 40-60 hectares. The soil is ordinary, not black soil.
KoCMoHaBT, with your permission I will write in the topic about Koshasty. She is more familiar to me.
Arjuna 07-10-2013 15:02
Roma777
-- At the beginning of the 17th century, when people lived by subsistence farming, in the Wild Field the Cossacks of the Great Sovereigns, for example, were given 20 chety in three fields
KoCMoHaBT 07-10-2013 15:21
quote: Originally posted by Arjuna:
Interesting information, thanks. However, now it is possible to make a discount in the cultivated areas on the yield of modern plant varieties and the large milk yields of livestock breeds, some advanced methods of crop production, etc....
Productivity is productivity, and you shouldn’t forget about fertilizers either. According to the conditions of introduction or catness, there are no fertilizers.
quote: Originally posted by Roma777:
At the beginning of the 17th century, when people lived by subsistence farming, in the Wild Field the Cossacks of the Great Sovereigns, for example, were given 20 chety in three fields. The so-called land salary. This is approximately 30 hectares. The actual allotment was usually less.
The Wild Field is black soil. And the Cossacks also went for zipuns quite regularly - their farms were richer than those of the peasants of the middle zone. The whole question is what in this farm came from money and what from black soil.
Taraz999 07-10-2013 15:39
Arjuna 07-10-2013 15:47
Taraz999
- and to survive on a separate farm with one family means to slowly degrade, even if you have 150 hectares
100! I haven’t tried it myself, but I intuitively feel that you are right!
Roma777 07-10-2013 15:50
I made allowances for the lack of black soil in the middle zone and for the presence of new Michurin varieties and new farming methods. About fertilizer: there is nothing better than manure. If there is cattle, there will be manure, which means there will be a harvest. But cattle need land. If 3 hectares is enough for planting, then another 20 are needed for livestock...
It was other Cossacks who went for the zipuns. Those whom I am talking about sat on the Belgorod defensive line and waited for the attacks of the Crimean Tatars. And during the time free from government duties, they took care of their own plot. We didn't live richly. This can be seen from the tens of the 16th and 17th centuries. Rarely does anyone have a horse... More and more with spears. And this is not only the case among ordinary Cossacks. The situation for the children of boyars and nobles is not much better. Land and cash wages are higher, but the poverty is the same. Rare on horseback, in saadak and with saber. Most with horns.
After analyzing the information I have, I concluded that today, for some semblance of a natural economy, just like 500 years ago, a minimum of 20 hectares is needed.
cadmium 07-10-2013 15:53
In the 20s, the economist Chayanov considered 25 hectares per family optimal. In the USA there was a book called “Five Acres of Independence.” That’s 2 hectares per family. This is for farmers. Nomads need a lot more land. After the BP, there will be no trade and textiles for someone sitting on his land, he will have to wear clothes made of hides and skins. And they must either be hunted or raised. But land for cotton and factories is not needed. In the old Dermania, pigs were fed in oak forests, on acorns “from under the hoof.” There, even the area of oak forests was measured “in pigs,” i.e. the number of them that this oak grove will feed. The land needed to feed one “meat-eater” will feed 4 vegetarians. The most “lazy” thing is to grow corn. No care. Break off the cobs. Stems and heads of cabbage are fuel. From root crops, Jerusalem artichoke. It grows and expands on its own. It doesn't freeze in the ground. They dig all year round. In the forest between the trees and in the clearings there is barley. The Finno-Ugrians, our predecessors on this land, ate it without knowing hunger.
HarryA 07-10-2013 16:04
quote: The Finno-Ugrians, our predecessors on this land, ate it without knowing hunger.
And where are they now?
USSR72 07-10-2013 16:10
1 ha\person
time-fixer 07-10-2013 16:27
I counted according to a clever book from the 19th century. It turned out to be a minimum of 12-15 hectares (so that all the food would be your own), optimally - 20 (so that excess food could be exchanged for clothes, books, tools, etc.)
Alt2000 07-10-2013 17:03
Central Russia is a zone of risky farming. Those. on a universal basis, the harvest is not guaranteed, despite all efforts.
This means that the agricultural sphero-horse will not pass.
fencer_al 07-10-2013 17:56
main introductory mistake - the survivalist family is completely autonomous and the neighbors are angry
however, if we study the experience of the Middle Ages, we will see a village, a community
men do hard work together, women go to mowing, where small children are taken care of, and some old woman sits with them, etc.
and to survive on a separate farm with one family means to slowly degrade, even if you have 150 hectares
There's a problem...
Preppers are not herd creatures.
Maximum - family + me.
And for the community, you need to join the team, share goodies, drag in the “orphan and wretched.” And this is immediately a survivalist fail.
This is where cognitive dissonance results.
WindMaker 07-10-2013 17:57
quote: Originally posted by Taraz999:
the main introductory mistake is that a survivalist family is completely autonomous and has angry neighbors; however, if we study the experience of the Middle Ages, we will see a village, a community, men do hard work together, women go to the mowing, where small children are asked, and some old woman sits with them, etc.
The only way. After all, even with the modern level of mechanization, there are still many types of work in the countryside that cannot be handled alone. Therefore, the most difficult work was done by “the whole world.” And the more numerous this “world” is, the easier it is. One family can only work on a ranch, where the main task is to make sure that the shop coyotes do not drag away the cattle, and that you yourself are not scalped by the Chingachgooks. And even then, often the coyotes were well-fed, and the Indians had wonderful collections of wigs from survivalists (non-herd creatures).
I just can’t imagine what it would be like for one family to cultivate 30 hectares without mechanization. My father planted 20 hectares of watermelons/melons, and even with the availability of equipment and the hiring of “scourges”, it was quite enough to get the hang of it.
quaserfirst 07-10-2013 18:05
quote: Originally posted by Taraz999:
the main introductory mistake is that the survivalist family is completely autonomous
+ infinity.
Kosoi 07-10-2013 18:12
There were already 3-4 of these
Regarding the question from the topic about the cat “I wonder how many hectares are needed to compensate for the feed” You won’t get good milk yield on grass alone, you must give grain, look up the grain yield in Google for your area and divide by 3
quaserfirst 07-10-2013 18:18
quote: You won’t get good milk yield on grass alone, you must give grain, look up the grain yield in Google for your area and divide by 3
So no time for fat... Stimulating milk yield with hand-made grain is only possible if there are slaves.
Kosoi 07-10-2013 18:24
And where are they now?
They died, but their descendants sit in front of monitors and ask stupid questions
pathologist 07-10-2013 19:51
But what is all the boron cheese for? If you don’t know how much land you need for self-sufficient survival, then the advice of “survivalists” will not help you.
you need to work on the ground! how much can you process? that's all you need. what’s the point of knowing what 10 hectares are needed to survive, but the ability to cultivate only 1 hectare (although this is too much. It’s cool to dig up! just once. For self-esteem.)
if there is no exchange-purchase-sale then where does the horse come from (a tractor is not provided except for fuel)
What will you plant? Jerusalem artichoke or wheat or apple orchards? (there is a difference). do you have any seeds?
and who will take into account the harvest?
victor01 07-10-2013 20:04
Pregnant women worked equally with non-pregnant women.
Yep 07-10-2013 20:14
quote: Originally posted by cadmium:
Finno-Ugrians, our predecessors on this land
Kosoi 07-10-2013 20:23
dig this cool!
Why dig? The experience of my garden shows that Kurdyumov’s methods work quite well, you just need to understand their essence and adapt it to your conditions
Better yet, let's discuss crop rotation systems and where to get that bunch of seeds that go to green manure
quaserfirst 07-10-2013 20:53
Three hundred square meters per family member to provide fruits and vegetables. This is where the arrogance ends, collective farm.
sachaff 07-10-2013 20:58
How interesting is it possible to fence a certain number of hectares for 10 sheep, for example?
pathologist 07-10-2013 21:00
quote: Why dig? The experience of my garden shows that Kurdyumov’s methods work quite well, you just need to understand their essence and adapt it to your conditions Better yet, let's discuss crop rotation systems and where to get that bunch of seeds that go to green manure
green manure. a-a-and here it is that smart word that will ensure survival! (or plows a couple of acres or a hectare of land)
victor01 07-10-2013 21:08
How interesting is it possible to fence a certain number of hectares for 10 sheep, for example?
How else can you fence it off?
From wolves?
Or from not running away?
In the first case there is a thick and high buried mesh, in the second there is a crossbar made of poles on the racks. This in itself is already a difficult task for survival.
sachaff 07-10-2013 21:09
quote: Originally posted by victor01:
in the second there is a crossbar made of poles on the racks.
for example 10 hectares?
quaserfirst 07-10-2013 21:09
quote: green manure. a-a-and here it is that smart word that will ensure survival! (or plows a couple of acres or a hectare of land)
Why are you being sarcastic, green manure really rules. But once, for the first time, you will have to plow/dig up. You can gradually, every year, moderately increase the plot of cultivated land. But again, I repeat, only garden crops, no grains or oilseeds, can be grown in this way.
victor01 07-10-2013 21:20
quote: Originally posted by sachaff:
for example 10 hectares?
Oftsy our everything...
Jokes aside, in winter sheep, like deer, will not shovel half a meter of snow with their muzzles, which means hay and COMPOUND FOOD (!), many have forgotten that with BP, there will be no BVK (protein-vitamin concentrate, an ingredient in the correct compound feed, not cake) and there will be no compound feed, This means mountains of hay for the winter, and we have it from November to April inclusive.
Yep 08-10-2013 03:58
quote: Originally posted by HarryA:
And where are they now?
they are here in Udmurtia.
What is Jerusalem artichoke, they are surprised to learn from such topics.
Taraz999 08-10-2013 06:59
quote: Originally posted by sachaff:for example 10 hectares?
Moreover, they trample/devour all the grass, so should a new piece be fenced off?
how many sheep?
if it's a dozen, then it's a bullshit question
if there is a flock, then only transhumance, no fences, shepherd's dogs and firearms to keep the wolves from running away - again dogs, I've seen 3-4 trained Alabai work, sheep only don't line up in a square
from the moment the snow melts until late autumn, the flock is grazed using the method of driving from pasture to pasture, the yurt/tent/wigwam is taken care of by the shepherds
in winter, shepherds live in a house in the PPD, sheep in sheds
Leonid Ilyich 08-10-2013 08:21
44 hectares per family. According to the norms, this was not considered a kulak economy.
JL_Pikar 08-10-2013 08:26
quote: And out of kindness you will begin to distribute lands to your companions, but WHAT DO THE COMPANIONS OF THE EARTH WITHOUT SERFS?
time-fixer 08-10-2013 10:08
quote: Originally posted by sachaff:for example 10 hectares?
Moreover, they trample/devour all the grass, so should a new piece be fenced off?
You should read specialized sites, perhaps, if the topic is interesting. Well, the brain must be constantly trained, because old age cannot be avoided and Alzheimer’s does not sleep...
In general, why fence all these ha-has at once? It is fenced off with an electric fence of about two hundred square meters. The sheep and goats ate up the grass and moved them to the next couple of acres. In addition, where they grazed in the spring, in the second half of summer the grass grows and you can graze again.
sachaff 08-10-2013 10:44
It is fenced off with an electric fence of about two hundred square meters.
time-fixer 08-10-2013 10:54
quote: Originally posted by sachaff:How long will it take 10 sheep to eat all the vegetation?
They won't eat all the vegetation. You can search for calculations, if you are interested, you can ask Google. I keep goats, 5 pieces. Half a hectare of forest is enough for them for spring-summer-autumn. Every day I move the grazing area. One of the pleasant bonuses is that the grazing areas have become very mushroom-filled, so I don’t even go mushroom hunting anymore - the children near the house pick up enough for the whole family.
KoCMoHaBT 08-10-2013 11:28
quote: Originally posted by time-fixer:
Half a hectare of forest is enough for them for spring-summer-autumn.
Right in the forest? Or undergrowth?
Ramil 08-10-2013 11:45
Rabbits: cage 0.5x0.5x0.5 m - 2-4 individuals fit. Keep until 3 months of age. Herbs in the diet are no more than 10%, and dried or dried.
Chickens: 20 pcs per 20 sq. m. Easily fit. They will also remove unnecessary grass. Granivores. Herbs in the diet are 10%, no more.
Geese, ducks: about 2 times more space + a bowl of water. They eat up the grass. More than 80% of the diet consists of herbs.
Quails: cage 0.5x0.5x0.2 m - 20 pcs. They don’t eat all kinds of grains, and they hardly eat grass either. Only compound feed. The most unpretentious poultry.
I only remember this from my dacha experience. Meat consumption can be estimated at 50-60 kg per year for the average person.
In short, you can live comfortably on 20 acres of dacha and provide 2 families with food all year round. Only if the land is used wisely.
Leonid Ilyich 08-10-2013 11:46
quote: Originally posted by KoCMoHaBT:
Where do these norms come from?
from literature. I didn’t look at the documents, but from the books you can roughly imagine who was considered a kulak at that time - those who hired farm laborers, had mechanization, or owned more than 44 hectares of land (this is from Kersnovskaya).
name Sergey 08-10-2013 11:59
There were collective farms and state farms in the USSR, but they gave a plan for harvesting. As the USSR collapsed, collective farms disappeared.
I think that much land is needed like a small collective farm from the times of the USSR.
fershal 08-10-2013 12:18
quote: Herbs in the diet no more than 10%,
vorobei 08-10-2013 12:27
For “full autonomy”, first of all, a large team is needed. It is not for nothing that large peasant families have already been mentioned here. Because For subsistence farming, you need to do a huge number of small tasks. Many of which do not require the strength of an adult, but require responsibility for the execution and quality of work. Which peasant children of those times who survived were accustomed to by the age of 5-7.
Accordingly, grandfathers and grandmothers, who can no longer handle hard work, can still look after their children, advise them, and pass on the skills of various crafts. Most of which are now not only lost, but most do not even remember the names of those classes.
KoCMoHaBT 08-10-2013 12:29
Nevermind...and what about the rest? Is it also compound feed?
More likely. This is how they survive on 20 acres + (lots of money and developed agriculture). Hence, in fact, the question of the topic - how much land is needed for complete self-sufficiency.
KoCMoHaBT 08-10-2013 12:31
And the intro is really strange. It doesn’t happen that you’re hanging around in your own fenced-in area, with no way out - and at the same time, no trade. In real life, there will always be those who want to “steer” and organize some semblance of civilization, at least in the format of “appanage principalities”...
In real life, those who want to “steer” will not give you anything, but will only take it away. Therefore, you can easily multiply the land necessary for self-sufficiency by 2 (for yourself and for that guy).
fencer_al 08-10-2013 12:35
quote: Originally posted by vorobei:
For “full autonomy”, first of all, a large team is needed.
Not really.
The more people there are, the higher the standard of living in the team.
More specialization means more efficient work in each individual case.
One person doing everything will, on average, do everything “normally,” but not “well.”
quote: Originally posted by vorobei:
It doesn’t happen that you’re hanging around in your own fenced-in area, with no way out - and at the same time, no trade. In real life, there will always be those who want to “steer” and organize some semblance of civilization, at least in the format of “appanage principalities”...
American. It seems to be a collection of Soviet editions.
There, one professor developed an energy dome that hid him and a small area. In case of nuclear war.
He chose the lady of his heart, and when the news about the “mushroom over some city” began, he confided in his plans... And she was inflamed with a sense of duty and got away from him.
Out of grief, he launched the dome...
This is the only option that satisfies the introduction.
wandergraft 08-10-2013 12:56
quote: Originally posted by fencer_al:
There was some fantastic story...
American. There, one professor developed an energy dome,
A story not by Steven Spielberg? I watched the series based on this book. It's called under the dome http://www.lostfilm.tv/browse.php?cat=186. So there the whole city was covered with a dome and the residents under this dome are suffering, some of them want to get out into the street, but they just can’t. Others are fine under the dome. But somehow the topic of food shortages was not very much touched on, I realized there were farmers there and they provided everyone with food in exchange for gas.
fencer_al 08-10-2013 13:02
A story not by Steven Spielberg? I watched the series based on this book.
I don't know... whose story. I only remember the gist that the dome is small, literally a house + an adjacent plot. And it was generated by the installation of a professor who closed there.
I watched the series with my wife... It's funny))
time-fixer 08-10-2013 14:30
quote: Originally posted by KoCMoHaBT:
Right in the forest? Or undergrowth?
Straight forest. Initially it had undergrowth and windbreaks. For 3 years, the goats have successfully eradicated the windbreaks, now there is a normal pine forest with sunny meadows. But sheep won’t graze in the forest, they don’t eat that kind of stuff, and they’re very scared.
time-fixer 08-10-2013 14:35
It’s just like that and say that cattle are easy to raise. As far as I can remember, herding cattle is quite a difficult task.
Okay to graze, still need to cut. Who will cut? Half of the survivors will be eliminated at this stage.
Well, okay, I killed the cattle. Who knows how to cut correctly?
Here to each his own. I find it easier to livestock than to have a garden. If it is weak to slaughter cattle, then what kind of cows and even just protection of the joquerville can we talk about? So stock up on a white sheet and move to live closer to the cemetery.
If it’s for yourself, then why should it be properly carved? I simply cut up a pig for my own consumption - the bones are separate, the meat is separate. It is necessary to cut up all sorts of entrecotes and loins for clients...
vorobei 08-10-2013 14:39
quote: Originally posted by KoCMoHaBT:
In real life, those who want to “steer” will not give you anything, but will only take it away. Therefore, you can easily multiply the land necessary for self-sufficiency by 2 (for yourself and for that guy).
It's clear. But they will provide transportation so that the “food tax” can be carried to them. And they will drive out everyone else who wants to rob. Because they need everything themselves.
Those. something like conditions for a relatively safe exchange of products will be created. It won’t happen that you sit in a limited area and produce everything for yourself.
Homo_erectus 08-10-2013 14:40
To calculate how much land is needed, you must first determine the level of consumption. again, they are only talking about food, but it is also necessary to plant industrial crops for clothing, at least, we need serious diversity in food crops, we need to calculate the amount of forest for firewood and construction.
but if we count more or less simply, then we assume the payback period of the land is 2a years, the price of the land is 30 thousand rubles. per hectare, sufficient salary per month 30 thousand rubles. per family and we get 24 hectares. Although this is a possible calculation option, it’s still a finger in the sky.
Taraz999 08-10-2013 14:43
quote: Who knows how to cut correctly?
I've been hunting since I was 14 years old
skinned quite a few hares and foxes, goats and all kinds of pigs, there were even porcupines
plucked quite a few ducks, pheasants and chukars
They kept pigs for 15 years, and burned them, steamed them, scraped them and butchered them.
so the question seemed to me from the series - the same for me as Newton's binomial
although later I reasoned that if a person had only seen meat on the supermarket counter, it would not be easy for him....
Leonid Ilyich 08-10-2013 15:13
As hunger sets in there will be no time for sentimentality.
Ray80 08-10-2013 15:38
Hyda (English hide, Anglo-Saxon: hϊd or hiwisc; Latin carrucate) is a unit of land size in Anglo-Saxon Britain (with the exception of Kent and Danish law territories). One guide represented the size of the cultivated land plot, sufficient to support one family of a free peasant (kerl).
The actual area of a gida varied by region: in Cambridgeshire and probably other Middle English areas, a typical gida reached 120 acres of arable land, while in Wiltshire and Dorset it was only 40 acres.
1 acre = 40 acres. 1 hectare = 2.5 acres.
victor01 08-10-2013 16:11
It seems that there will be no revelation on this topic.
Those interested and sympathizing would do well to familiarize themselves with the history of mankind, especially on the agricultural topic, in terms of subsistence farming.
Everything has long been invented, tested and optimized.
PS, the structure of the brain of Homo Sapiens (not humanoids) has not changed in any way since the beginning of time, and accordingly we are no smarter (not to be confused with education or well-read) than our ancestors, who repeatedly and successfully survived serious fucked-up situations...
I ask you not to throw away your slippers for the truth.
wandergraft 08-10-2013 17:06
In fact, you don’t need a lot of land; 3 acres of land per person is enough to feed purely on plants. Moreover, labor costs for growing are minimal. But there’s a problem with fertilizers; without shit, nothing really grows. All these green manures are bullshit, according to my observations, normal manure is much better.
fencer_al 08-10-2013 17:47
We need to decide how many people will have to be fed.
We decide on the diet.
Bread, potatoes, cereals, dairy products, meat.
We decide who we will breed.
The numbers are how much is needed for a cow, and how much is needed for a family of rabbits on the internet.
Further on plant-based:
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%...%80%D0%BE%D1%82
In general terms it is written how to change cultures.
The principle of crop rotation implies a continuous cycle. Those. without the import of fertilizers.
A vegetable garden seems to be similar to potatoes.
As a first approximation, it turns out that 2 hectares for a family of 3 people are covered.
With chickens, goats and rabbits.
quaserfirst 08-10-2013 17:54
quote: Originally posted by time-fixer:
Initially it had undergrowth and windbreaks. For 3 years, the goats have successfully eradicated the windbreaks, now there is a normal pine forest with sunny meadows
And after 30, the forest became sparse, after 100, a couple of centuries-old pines will remain in this meadow, until the first strong wind.
vorobei 08-10-2013 20:05
quote: Originally posted by quaserfirst:Well, goats don't live that long. And when the forest “ripes”, it is useful to cut it down - but first plant a new one in a new place. Accordingly, goats are not grazed in the same place. They can really destroy all the vegetation, but here it’s the person’s fault. You have to think.
quaserfirst 08-10-2013 22:12
quote: Originally posted by vorobei:
Accordingly, goats are not grazed in the same place.
The British Isles went bald for the same reason.
Ramil 09-10-2013 07:19
quote: Originally posted by fershal:
Nevermind...and what about the rest? Is it also compound feed?
Compound feed, grain. As a result, the price of meat will be the same as in the store or higher than in the store.
By the way, if you read books on poultry farming and rabbit breeding, pay attention to where it was published and what region the author writes about. And it seems that the Kuban daily feeding norms in reality differ from the Siberian ones
quote: Originally posted by wandergraft:
Stephen King
The book touches on energy and food issues in eerie detail.
quote: Originally posted by time-fixer:
If it’s for yourself, then why should it be properly carved? I simply cut up a pig for my own consumption - the bones are separate, the meat is separate. It is necessary to cut up all sorts of entrecotes and loins for clients...
Here you are butchering the carcass (already blighted, but still warm and in its skinned form it is just trying to escape from the cutting table), I am butchering, several people are butchering. Will the rest of the sofa ones be able to? I'm not talking about hunters and collective farmers, as well as summer residents. I'm talking about those who are in the subject of survival. They may only have seen meat in stores in the form of semi-finished products.
quote: Originally posted by quaserfirst:
And after 30, the forest became sparse, after 100, a couple of centuries-old pines will remain in this meadow, until the first strong wind.
We have to cut down every year cubic meters of willow grass. Raspberries are also difficult to lime: “Let’s plant raspberries... Let’s plant raspberries... Along the fence...”. They imprisoned me. During the season you have to thin out raspberries twice. Goats can’t handle that much if 50-60 rabbits can’t handle it. Moreover, we don’t go far to get the willow, a maximum of 100 meters in one direction or the other along the plots.
vorobei 09-10-2013 08:57
quote: Originally posted by quaserfirst:
There is an opinion that in Greece the forests were destroyed not for the burial of heroes, but rather for the banal destruction of small livestock.
....................
In Greece - very similar to the truth. Britain is unlikely. There weren't that many free-ranging goats there. The people there did their best.
time-fixer 09-10-2013 10:57
quote: Originally posted by Ramil:
Here you are butchering the carcass (already blighted, but still warm and in its skinned form it is just trying to escape from the cutting table), I am butchering, several people are butchering. Will the rest of the sofa ones be able to? I'm not talking about hunters and collective farmers, as well as summer residents. I'm talking about those who are in the subject of survival. They may only have seen meat in stores in the form of semi-finished products.
Well, what kind of survivors are these? All they can do is eat grass, but here they are their own evil pinocchios. Watching and participating is not a problem - I went to the village with my granny and agreed that you would help - both experience and meat as a gift. For my next pig, three city comrades are already asking me to help with cutting - you can open courses and collect money. Although only one agrees to help kill
Va-78 09-10-2013 11:31
quote: There is an opinion that in Greece the forests were destroyed not for the burial of heroes, but rather for the banal destruction of small livestock. For the Greeks had no time to plant a new forest, and the forest itself could not grow, due to the consumption of young shoots.
The British Isles went bald for the same reason.
bullshit. Historian-kun guarantees it.
quote: A story not by Steven Spielberg? I watched the series based on this book. Called under the dome
it was already in the simpsons.
Va-78 09-10-2013 11:34
quote: Here you are butchering the carcass (already tarnished, but still warm and in its skinned form it is just trying to escape from the cutting table), I am butchering, several people are butchering. Will the rest of the sofa ones be able to? I'm not talking about hunters and collective farmers, as well as summer residents. I'm talking about those who are in the subject of survival. They may only have seen meat in stores in the form of semi-finished products.
It’s hard for me to believe that there is a man who would never even understand the big fish. Once he spills shit out of his guts, he'll turn out to be a pro the next time.
yadershchik 09-10-2013 12:29
quote: Originally posted by KoCMoHaBT:
A subtopic arose in the topic about Koshasty.
How much land do you need to survive self-sufficiently, that is, to provide food and clothing for a family of... well, say, 5 people? The introductory conditions are no trade (no trade at all) and no foreign land (it is forbidden to graze goats in no-man's ravines).
Interesting way to pose the question. As far as I understand, TS is saying that he is going to move to live somewhere in the forests, where there is nothing and no one. For even with the most evil and cruel neighbors, there will be some kind of trade (not with some and with others - it is extremely rare for an ENTIRE settlement to hate one particular family). From this we can draw the following conclusions:
1. It’s not clear what to do with the same salt - you have to buy it anyway (or does TS suggest storing a couple of tons with you?
2. The thought slipped through my mind that it was somewhere in the forests, especially distant ones. Then a counter-question: does the vehicle know how to cultivate virgin soil in the middle of a forest? uproot stumps to make a field, etc. - an extremely non-trivial task. Without technology it is very difficult to implement.
3. If it is possible to use a tractor, I don’t understand why you can’t use diesel fuel and other fuels and lubricants for the first 5-10 years. The same MTZ-80 for plowing 1 hectare of black soil will burn 20 liters of diesel fuel - if for 1 family, then 2 tons of diesel fuel will be enough for the next 30 years for most tasks for a family of 4-5 souls. If you can buy a tractor, why can’t you buy fuel and lubricants for it for such and such a period? Fuel consumption is not that great, especially if you don’t have to travel far and everything is in place.
4. I have a family: my parents, my brother and I, and our wives - a total of 6 adults (children don’t really count - since they eat much less than an adult). The vegetable garden is 85 acres, black soil, half of which is sown with wheat (for sales and for poultry feed). 30 turkeys and 30 geese plus 30-40 rabbits a year are basically enough to have enough meat. Again, there are heels of pigs in the barn - if we exclude sales, this will definitely be enough for meat even for so many adults.
5. Goats will be better than cows if you need to raise a farm in virgin lands, since a cow still needs the same amount of space (for fodder crops) plus five hectares for haymaking and grazing (if the winters are harsh, then essentially the cow eats hay for 6 months, which means for the remaining six months it is necessary to prepare it - here again - you, dear TS, know how to mow grass for hay? If not, then it’s better to have a mower for the tractor (when feeding a cow, even the worst mower will produce enough feed for a goat? in quiet mode) - save a lot of time and effort. Again, not so much fuel will be burned.
6. Electricity: its presence greatly improves life, even by simply maintaining the freezer. So a windmill or a simple generator on a stream will greatly save your efforts to provide yourself with food (for example, canning berries for the winter is much more difficult than freezing them).
7. Heating. If this is the middle zone, then you need to take care of a warm house right away - how is the vehicle going to build a house and at the same time engage in raising virgin soil? Perhaps he will accumulate enough reserves for 1 year. Or everything ready for the house will be brought to the place of deployment. You can, of course, live in the kung of a truck, but this is a VERY extreme option. Although preferable to staying in a tent.
8. The availability of water resources is not specified in any way - but this is one of the main problems - is there a river nearby, and is it possible to fish there, since such help can turn out to be quite critical if the garden is eaten up by wild goats/pigs and others.
9. Protecting the garden from the encroachments of wild animals - in Hungary, for example, all gardens are fenced with chain-link mesh - it is enough for roe deer and other hares, but I will not say that it is enough to protect from a hungry wild boar - it will simply dig up and crawl through the bottom. Then goodbye to the crops and harvest - protecting the garden from the invasion of forest animals is the main problem in the garden.
10. Feeding a horse, as many of the embroiderers are planning to do, is not so easy. Or rather, the task is very difficult in the conditions of a modern village (with the presence of horse-drawn seeders and mowers) and quite a problematic task if it is necessary to develop virgin forest land. I’ll explain it popularly: you have to work on your horse ALL SEASON! If you want to plow fields with it and not just ride on a cart with rubber tires on the asphalt. That is, a tractor in this regard (for raising virgin soil) is, in my opinion, much more preferable, at least the tractor will prepare feed for the horse for the first time, until the land is “too tough” for the horse to plow.
pathologist 09-10-2013 12:57
if a similar question arises (well, in the sense of regarding the land), then the person who asked it has no experience working with the land. Then at 41 it’s too late to drink Borjomi. and this is not about the fact that it’s too late to start cultivating the land, but about the fact that if you don’t know which side to disassemble the machine, then don’t bother (disassembling the machine is much easier than cultivating the land).
and if such “hopelessness” was brought up, then this is the wrong topic. This needs to be addressed to agronomists. They will tell you statistics and the yield of certain crops.
KoCMoHaBT 09-10-2013 13:14
quote: Originally posted by pathologist:
if a similar question arises (well, in the sense of regarding the land), then the person who asked it has no experience working with the land.
No one has such experience.
Why not? But because raising a pig on feed is not a required experience.
Interesting way to pose the question. As far as I understand, TS is saying that he is going to move to live somewhere in the forests, where there is nothing and no one
Nobody is going anywhere! You don’t need to figure anything out for me.
As for the tractor and the supply of diesel fuel. To hell with it, let there be diesel fuel for 100 years. The conditions are unlimited self-sufficiency.
By the way, a solar storage facility also needs space, so add it to the total area.
Now about heating.
It is necessary to think over the forest area, taking into account annual heating and restoration of the forest fund in a limited area. Did you think you were in a fairy tale about zombies?
Revelator 09-10-2013 13:26
quote: Originally posted by KoCMoHaBT:
How much land do you need for self-sufficient survival?
One planet for everyone will be enough
Ramil 09-10-2013 13:31
It’s hard for me to believe that there is a man who would never even understand the big fish. Once he spills shit out of his guts, he'll turn out to be a pro the next time.
There are some, and 95% of them are in the surrounding area
victor01 09-10-2013 13:32
quote: To hell with it, let there be diesel fuel for 100 years
After 5 years, if stored improperly, it won’t even be used for heating...
victor01 09-10-2013 13:33
quote: Originally posted by Revelator:
One planet will be enough for everyone
A lot of! The first normal thoughts on the topic...
Va-78 09-10-2013 14:34
quote: + a lot! The first normal thoughts on the topic...
The other day I was looking at Google pictures of Ukraine - I was crazy - we don’t have any forests left. When you walk this way and that, everything seems to be fine, but if you look a little from above, it’s a shame.
JL_Pikar 09-10-2013 15:12
quote: Originally posted by Va-78:
Dont warri bi happy.
quote: Ukrainian Prime Minister Azarov contrasted the positions of Minsk and Moscow, “which directly promises to complicate our lives”:
“I ask the question, why should life be complicated? On the contrary, it should be made simpler, more joyful. No barriers should appear simply because there is no reason for this.”
Everything is sooo good.
Taraz999 09-10-2013 15:44
quote: No one has such experience. Why not? But because raising a pig on feed is not a required experience.
Did you grow it YOURSELF?
I raised, I can independently put out a boar that is not for breeding (castrate), I don’t steam the piglets hot, I’ll build a barn so that the pigs don’t open the floor and turn out the eating trough, and I’ll give birth to the pig and she’ll give birth to the piglets along with my place If he doesn’t eat, I’ll kill the pig, and I’ll even collect all the blood and make sausage, and cut it up, and I won’t cut the gallbladder.
because I have this fucking unnecessary experience
KoCMoHaBT 09-10-2013 15:49
quote: Originally posted by Taraz999:
Did you grow it YOURSELF?
...
because I have this unnecessary experience
Have you ever fattened a pig? without buying anything for him?
victor01 09-10-2013 15:53
quote: Originally posted by Va-78:
look at this question the way we look at the times of Hammurabi today. The normality of this thought will seem more and more questionable the further forward in time you move.
The other day I was looking at Google pictures of Ukraine - I was crazy - we don’t have any forests left. When you walk this way and that, everything seems to be fine, but if you look a little from above, it’s a shame.
I find some contradiction in this statement.
Normality, IMHO, is to live and maintain the quantitative and qualitative composition of the population without any major shocks.
People (in general), creating unbearable living conditions for themselves on the planet (as you say), having plundered and polluted everything around them, are trying to find a plot of virgin nature for their personal possession.
Is this nostalgia for a healthy lifestyle or an escape from problems?
Isn't it easier to preserve what you have without exchanging it for idyllic delirium?
At a bus stop near my village, they dump garbage from passing cars; the larger the jeep, the larger the mountains of it.
The brutes and freaks who are gradually bringing the ecological BP closer are nearby, but we do not consider them enemies. We ourselves are the beginning of BP.
PS, there won’t be enough reserves for all the visiting survivors; with resettlement there will be a noticeable reduction in their number.
Taraz999 09-10-2013 15:54
quote: Have you ever fattened a pig without buying anything for it?
to answer a question with a question... hmm...... I don’t, a huntsman I know fed fish from the pond (90% of the diet) and root vegetables from the garden and scraps from the table... I only bought vaccinations once at the veterinary pharmacy
KoCMoHaBT 09-10-2013 15:59
quote: Originally posted by Taraz999:
You can answer it yourself, do you have any experience in breeding? or you think that you don’t need any experience with compound feed, they say they will grow on their own....
victor01 09-10-2013 16:00
quote: Originally posted by KoCMoHaBT:
If not all, then many.
pathologist 09-10-2013 16:51
No one has such experience.
Then what is the point of a neophyte theorist asking “advanced” theorists?
Taras999 wrote to you that he can really do it himself, how will this help you?
When to inject koban, do you need to be friends with Skype? You won’t find real experience on the Internet, and you can’t buy it in real life. if you live and do your job well, then there is no need to have problems finding hemorrhoids. when BP arrives (you asked for him about the land?) then the cards will be in hand, otherwise how much, what, is needed for food? one store is quite enough for a modern person.
and work that pays within the minimum. Otherwise, ask the question bluntly: how much does a person need to live comfortably and not do anything at the same time?
I harnessed the slaves and let them squirm, I came up with a currency (not only I don’t eat, greed is everything, well, inflated self-esteem also rules, motivation is on the verge of stupidity, I have a cooler car than yours and not just one, but three!) so that the motivation would be more significant and go ahead!
about self-realization, the main thing is not to forget to come up with some kind of religion, and it is imperative that the bp (Armageddon, global flood, etc.) looms somewhere just around the corner, then wow! If they work well, they will go to heaven and, accordingly, if the result is negative.
The main thing is to “fuss” the brains of yourself and others so that the rules of the game are not clear.
Sorry for the trouble. however, further and further the topics in the ward are somehow, well, stupid or, more precisely, not thought out.
nothing personal. I just thought about what kind of land we are talking about, there is also a lot of land in the tundra, and in deserts, but the climate where you can cultivate crops is different. For this reason, the introductory one is not clear, what is EARTH needed for? for food? doesn't fit. for growing? so the conditions are so different that there is simply nothing to talk about. and not everyone is “worthy” of communicating with the earth.
Not everyone will be able to engage in agriculture, farming and cattle breeding. simply because we have gone too far from it.
and there is no one to blame for this; industrialization and other “benefits” of humanity were not invented by us, we are simply forced to support them.
KoCMoHaBT 09-10-2013 17:10
pathologist 09-10-2013 18:18
quote: However, what a stream of consciousness...
Yes, your topic got stuck. (and not only)
pathologist 09-10-2013 18:20
however, if you understand it well, it’s not such a crazy stream of consciousness.
Taraz999 09-10-2013 20:17
quote: Originally posted by Taraz999: you can answer it yourself, do you have any experience in breeding? or you think that you don’t need any experience with compound feed, they say they will grow on their own....
quote: I think that a modern peasant without a tractor, fertilizers and feed is not able to grow anything at all.
that is, there is no experience...
no offense, most people here don’t have it, but why are there pigs in the city?
this means that after BP, those who built a house with their own hands from normal materials will be able to build it from shit
and much more successful than someone who just read how to build it
the same goes for pigs fed on mixed feed
the one who knows how to fatten them with mixed feed will fatten them with pasture
so experience is experience
as they say, you can’t drink it
pathologist 09-10-2013 21:12
quote: Well, where are there pigs in the city?
so all the time! go to any store and you will be greeted like in a village.
kalmuik 10-10-2013 15:19
quote: Notice that I didn’t talk about anything, but asked a simple question - how much land is needed for complete self-sufficiency
But what about this?
quote: I think that a modern peasant without a tractor, fertilizers and feed is not able to grow anything at all.
Anyway. I answer your question. My ancestors came to Kalmykia from the Voronezh province in the mid-19th century. Former farmers. Within one generation, they mastered semi-nomadic cattle breeding (women with younger children at home, men with older sons wandering), which they practiced until the 60s of the 20th century. After a change in realities, they switched to settled cattle breeding.
When I changed my residence, I switched to a third type of business. Each type of business requires different resources. Geese need water, livestock need grazing, and bees need land at all (the main thing is a honey supply).
kalmuik 10-10-2013 15:33
quote: Instead of answering they tell me,
Please do not be offended. They are simply trying to explain to you that your question is not correct. If you want to receive a comprehensive answer, ask a comprehensive introduction.
quote: how they kept 18 heads of cattle, a few sheep,
pigs, poultry, a dozen 4 rabbits.
Well, maybe I rambled a little Well, sorry, it’s just nice to remember
KoCMoHaBT 10-10-2013 15:40
Those. The determining factor is not the amount of land per family, but the ability to use available resources, which is achieved by experience and appropriate upbringing.
Resources can be used in different ways. The goal of the modern peasant is trade, not self-sufficiency. The result is, for example, 50 acres of potatoes (300 centners per hectare for 20 rubles per kg = 300,000 rubles per year or 25,000 rubles per month).
This is not necessary!
You need self-sufficiency. If 150 centners of potatoes are enough for self-sufficiency, that means 50 acres. But I don’t think you can last more than a month on such a diet. Plus, you need heating and fuel for cooking - the area of forest land for this must also be indicated, taking into account forest restoration.
The resources in the introductory course are universal (everything is there), you need to indicate the area.
kalmuik 10-10-2013 16:08
quote: The resources in the introductory course are universal (everything is there), you need to indicate the area.
I indicate.
It is IMPOSSIBLE for one family to live in isolation in the conditions of central Russia. Tools, salt, rotation of producers are REQUIRED. Which implies the need for COMMODITY production in order to purchase the NECESSARY.
If you are ready to live at the level of the North American Indians (hunting-gathering, lack of salt and metal), then let's calculate their areas. The Blackfoot Confederacy at its peak numbered an estimated 18 thousand people (namely, people - not warriors). Controlled an area of approximately 700x500 km. Let’s take the total number of people of all other tribes living in the controlled territory as 18 thousand people. We end up with 350,000 sq. kilometers for 36,000 people. Total approximately 9-10 sq. km. for 1 person. At the same time, there is a huge variety of lands for fishing, hunting and gathering. And a wild struggle for resources (almost annual inter-tribal wars and campaigns). At the same time, they still had the beginnings of trade.
Corporal Barrier 10-10-2013 16:10
KoCMoHaBT 10-10-2013 16:44
God knows how to count, there are 50 acres of arable land - you will persist, but you also need mowing and grazing.
That's it!
quote: Originally posted by kalmuik:
If you are ready to live at the level of the North American Indians (hunting-gathering, no salt and metal)
The labor intensity of hunting in modern conditions is much higher than the labor intensity of livestock farming. The Indians had a huge crowd of buffalo running around, but they were still constantly starving.
Well, the area of hunting/gathering lands is difficult to calculate.
victor01 10-10-2013 16:59
The topic, in general, is understandable and not as absurd as it might seem...
Simply, the answer lies not in the plane of ward labor survival, but somehow broader.
It will not be possible to survive autonomously in the Middle Zone (without a state guaranteeing minimal security).
All the same, you will have to build a city/settlement-state.
With warriors, artisans and division of labor.
The answers will have to be sought in the study of history and, to broaden one’s horizons, in the now fashionable Noosphere.
pathologist 10-10-2013 17:23
quote: And when they had time to milk
Stakhanov as your teacher!
quote: It is IMPOSSIBLE for one family to live in isolation in the conditions of central Russia. Tools, salt, manufacturer rotation
If you taught history to the Chukchi in the last century, they would all die out because hopelessness is dreary.
quote: Let's take the total number of people of all other tribes living in the controlled territory as 18 thousand people. We end up with 350,000 sq. kilometers for 36,000 people. Total approximately 9-10 sq. km. for 1 person. At the same time, there is a huge variety of lands for fishing, hunting and gathering.
http://china.kulichki.com/figures/land/001.shtml
That's all the arithmetic for you.
Corporal Barrier 10-10-2013 18:22
quote: Originally posted by pathologist:
Calculate the average number of Chinese and divide by area
Well, that’s possible. Adjusted for their rice yields there, and ours, barley and potatoes in the middle zone.
pathologist 10-10-2013 18:47
quote: Adjusted for their rice yields there, and ours, barley and potatoes in the middle zone.
and anyway the topic is about eating, not about working. How can you sit in the city and talk about working in the fields? absurd! One can only speculate, but how will it come to fruition? Well, for normal spherical existence you need 1 or 10 hectares of land, so you also need to cultivate it, for this you need a horse or... much more, to be brief.
Therefore, for a single family, hunting and gathering and agriculture, but only as an option and not for food as the only hope.
pathologist 10-10-2013 19:05
quote: asked a simple question - how much land is needed for complete self-sufficiency.
For what purpose are you interested? Do you lack self-sufficiency? or was it “pulled” towards the ground? This happens with age, you want to do something, leave something for the children, plant a tree, etc.
the question implies an answer, but your answer is not complete, which is why a flood of all sorts of things pours in.
specify for whom (cattle breeder, peasant, office manager, trader) for what? (hunting, trade (what exactly, if in America a couple of centuries ago glass beads went with a bang, then today try to smuggle some kind of office equipment to an African bushman), agriculture (if cotton grows well in Kazakhstan, then it’s not a fact that it will also growth in the middle zone), breeding animals (which ones exactly depends on the food supply where reindeer survive; pigs do not eat reindeer moss)
After these clarifications, perhaps you yourself will find the answer to your question.
Corporal Barrier 10-10-2013 19:17
quote: Originally posted by pathologist:
then we must also remember to make allowances for arable land and mountains.
Are you either a fool or pretending??? What's the point of taking mountains into account? Why the hell are you throwing up such numbers then? Naturally, farmland.
pathologist 10-10-2013 19:49
quote: What's the point of taking mountains into account?
http://jancel.ru/udivitelnyie-risovyie-polya/
I will not respond to rudeness with rudeness.
KoCMoHaBT 10-10-2013 20:01
quote: Originally posted by pathologist:
For what purpose are you interested? Do you lack self-sufficiency? or was it “pulled” towards the ground?
But why are you asking? Are you an anti-Semite?
Corporal Barrier 10-10-2013 20:05
So. Do you speak Russian? In Russia, to what extent are mountains considered farmland? And how much of the mountains are farmland in China, and what proportion of the total there is? To hell with it, then with this China.
Then let’s take the soldier’s layout and count. What kind of food basket in certain conditions may be more or less corresponding to calories and other things... Next, how much land is needed to produce all this. Then we cut down the soldering due to its high tensile strength.
pathologist 10-10-2013 20:21
Are you an anti-Semite?
Nope cosmopolitan.
quote:
quote: Then let’s take the soldier’s layout and count. What kind of food basket in certain conditions may be more or less appropriate for calories and other things...
what time? during the fighting during WWII? or in peacetime? The soldier’s layout is only good on paper (well, like a uniform from a famous couturier in the sense of beautiful but not practical), why are they changing dry rations to lambs? and why does a soldier in a cap run for cookies if everything is so good with calories in the diet?
but in reality it all depends on the greed of the food supply boss. or did you serve in some other army? It’s the Americans who don’t get juice for breakfast then they don’t go into battle.
Corporal Barrier 10-10-2013 21:22
quote: Originally posted by pathologist:
depending on what to grow. if grapes then count?
Where are the grapes in the mountains in Russia? In the Urals?
quote: Originally posted by pathologist:
in fact, it all depends on the greed of the food manager
Regardless of his greed, the layout exists.
quote: Originally posted by pathologist:
Did you serve in any other army?
Calm down already, okay? The topic is not about the fact that the tiger's meat was eaten, but someone cannot live without waffles.
Living in the capital of Kalmykia and having, in principle, a good job, I kept 18 heads of cattle, some sheep, pigs, poultry, and a dozen 4 rabbits.
Having moved to Lipetsk, I encountered a completely different situation. The composition of the subsidiary farm has changed completely. Now there are bees, rabbits, geese, ducks, goats in the yard.
Kum in Kalmykia kept 10 heads of cattle and 60 heads of sheep. In Lipetsk he keeps pigs, chickens, geese/ducks.
This is despite the fact that we both have well-paid jobs.
Just housekeeping allows you to maintain your own skills, accustoms your children to work (my godfather and I have four sons each), and provides high-quality meat and honey. Well, just interesting
I beg your pardon, but living in the capital (even in a city with a population of 100 thousand people), keeping 18 heads of cattle is somehow a bad dance, it’s just what kind of land you need to have for a barn. Or live on the very outskirts of the city, where across the path there are collective farm fields and grazing. I know what it’s like to keep 4 heads of cattle + 12 pigs and other goats and sheep. We had to bring up to half a ton of clover a day in the summer (to feed everyone and put them in the hayloft to dry for the winter). by 18 heads this figure must be increased almost 5 times - that is, at least 2 tons and that’s per day! A little mechanization is needed just to provide all this with feed. Plus, for the winter you need not only hay, but also beets and grain (in order to grind them for food). In order to simply provide high-quality meat and honey for a family of 6 people, a couple of heads of cattle and 4-5 dozen rabbits plus the same number of geese, chickens and heels of pigs are enough.
Or you need to have a VERY good opportunity to buy food cheaply (or for free) for such a large number of animals (well, and spend at least half of the day doing just that, even if you have 4 helper sons and you). Or hire workers. In my opinion, having a good job (in your words), it makes no sense to keep such a herd.
By the way, it also costs time. My parents once (I was a student) had 2 cows and 2 bulls. I personally spent 45-50 minutes on the procedure of milking these 2 cows, that is, in total, about an hour and a half a day. It took another 3 hours a day to mow the grass and bring it home from a field located far beyond the village. And there were other tasks; then, during the holidays at home, I was busy all day with housekeeping, spinning around like I was in a frying pan. And then in the fall we sold the bulls for meat, because there was no point in keeping them in the winter.
In my opinion, you either lived on the very edge of the capital of Kalmykia (then it would be somehow incorrect to mention that you lived in the city) - that there was a grazing field across the road, or I don’t understand something at all. After all, even moving such a number of living creatures across the road - if there is heavy traffic on the road - is a big problem. Although if you were the chairman of a neighboring collective farm/farm manager, then maybe this would make sense. In other adequate situations, in order to provide such a quantity of living creatures, it is necessary to STEAL FOOD ROUND THE CLOCK, there will simply be no time to work/study at school. Moreover, you have to prepare feed for the winter anyway - your climate is no warmer than in Ukraine, as far as I understand.
In our village, there was a man who taught his daughter at a very prestigious university - he paid high prices for tuition and also kept 12-15 cows - so he didn’t work anywhere, slept probably 2 hours a day - all the time he rode in a cart, scooping up feed wherever he had to, because he had to feed this amount is VERY difficult. For in order for a cow to milk it, it must be fed accordingly.
For the sake of interest, few people will keep a large farm. Here the “just interesting” argument doesn’t quite work in my opinion - here are your own products, yes, I agree, but again you don’t need to keep a large herd for yourself - 5 times smaller is enough.
kalmuik 11-10-2013 12:21
quote: oh how many people love to be friends with mathematics! Calculate the average number of Chinese and divide by area
Oh, how some people like to distort. Do the Chinese have complete natural self-sufficiency?
Ramil 11-10-2013 12:37
I can recommend a little, go 100 kilometers away from the big city and see how people live in the villages. I personally know villages where pensioners are considered rich people, and salaries are 3 thousand rubles. are considered good.
kalmuik 11-10-2013 12:38
quote: I'm sorry, but...
Many were amazed, especially since I lived practically in the center of the capital.
It just happened that way. In the early 90s in Kalmykia there was complete ass for those who are not criminals and do not steal. It became scary. I decided to take steps towards self-sufficiency. I remembered my grandmother’s words “a cow will always feed you” and bought a heifer. Then a cow (so as not to wait until the heifer calve). Gradually the livestock grew (I tried not to sell the heifers). Started a horse. There were all sorts of things. And they wrote in the newspaper (as a positive example). And there were raids.
The cows were driven to the outskirts of the city, approximately 2-2.5 km. A shepherd received him there.
The suckling calves stood in pens. Grass and reeds were cut for them. The young animals were sent to the point and there I herded them in line with other people.
In winter, the bulls were exchanged for hay. They bought bran from the mill (fortunately, livestock farming fell in the 90s and bran cost a penny). The grazing period was 9-10 months.
kalmuik 11-10-2013 12:49
quote: You don’t need to keep a large herd for yourself - 5 times smaller is enough
Climate + breed + conditions of detention. Milk was sold in the neighborhood (after all, the city center). The surplus was used for cheese. A relatively large number of livestock made it possible to carry out even primitive selection and played the role of a “passbook.” With the revival of livestock farming in Kalmykia in the early 2000s, the profitability of the farm began to fall (feed became more expensive, milk and meat became relatively cheaper). This was one of the reasons that in 2003 they sold almost the entire farm (well, they left a couple of heads of cattle for their mother) and moved to Lipetsk. Here, the money received from the sale allowed us to feel confident financially.
yadershchik 11-10-2013 13:01
For the vehicle - here different options were discussed, so, this is not counting grazing, it’s difficult to say how much is needed, but at least a hectare per head. In principle, flooded forest meadows are not much worse in terms of calorie content, but in terms of labor costs they are heaven and earth. I mowed this and that - without a mower, it’s better not to meddle in a forest meadow that has never been mowed, out of habit - because then you won’t be able to lift a spoon. For a couple of goats, half a hectare will be enough - this is without strain for their grazing, plus the same amount for preparing feed.
Pig requires much less labor - you can feed it in different ways and feeds. For example, my parents fatten it like this: for a couple of months the emphasis is on grass and root vegetables - then on wholemeal flour (I don’t know what it’s called correctly in Russian) - as a result, the cuttings come out multi-layered - 3-4 layers of meat and lard are interspersed. Yummy excellent!
So, for a couple of pigs - you need almost nothing - from a garden of 50 acres they are fully fed.
BUT if you need it for an indefinite period, then you need to think about what you need: a) a sow, preferably two. b) pig daddy
about the fact that in order to raise these sows/pothers, it is necessary to take the appropriate feed and so on - for many villagers, the piglets from their sows do not survive very well - because something was not added to the sow’s diet in time - and hello, wait for the next farrowing. It’s not as simple as it seems; it’s not like feeding a wild boar. By the way, in order to castrate a boar efficiently, you also need to have at least some idea of veterinary medicine.
Further: goats are probably the most successful animal to keep in the forest under the conditions specified by the vehicle. They require little food, care, and get sick much less than other living creatures. Plus, there are downy goats, my parents kept these at one time - the wool falls off their body in the spring, this wool can then be used for yarn, but I won’t tell you how to make yarn from them, because they didn’t do this themselves, they just sold the wool and that’s it.
Sheep are almost the same as goats. plus or minus.
Rabbits - in order to feed 2 dozen mother rabbits plus their offspring plus 3-4 breeder rabbits - you need at least a hectare of grass for food plus at least the same amount for hay for the winter. To this add root vegetables and grains, which they love very much (wheat, oats) - the more varied the diet, the less likely they are to get sick. However, without constant vaccinations, it’s scary to get involved with rabbits - my parents almost reduced the number of animals, since many rabbits in the village began to get sick. You can’t guess here - they can multiply for years, or maybe one morning they are all covered in blisters and abscesses and die every other day, 5 at a time. And many vaccinations, for example, require storage only at a certain temperature, which cannot be done without a refrigerator. There is an option to keep rabbits in the ground, then the area is fenced with a chain-link mesh, which is buried half a meter into the ground (so that they do not dig holes under it) and they get sick much less , because they live in their natural environment, BUT! I don’t know how to catch them if they can run into a hole at any second, plus in a small area they require much more food, since they run much more and also consume more calories.
To feed the family itself - for 6 adults, 50 acres of land is enough - this is for vegetables and fruits. I didn’t count the bread, because if you have your own bread, then you probably need at least the same amount for grain crops (and maybe more, depending on the yield). But for example, a garden requires space and a lot of it. My father started gardening a long time ago, but real results begin to appear after about 5-10 years. Because with trees, too, not everything is simple - for example, we now have 6-8 acres under the garden, but for me personally this is not enough, because I want a little of everything - mulberries, dogwoods, apple-pear trees, cherries and so on. Some trees do not grow on ashes (like mulberries). Some are bisexual (mulberry and sea buckthorn), you need to plant the male tree next to the fruit-bearing tree, which again requires space.
Nuts: This is a very good thing. The calorie content is very high, storage is quite simple - you can keep a good supply in any hut. But for example, walnuts greatly shade other plantings, that is, they require a large area, but they grow quite quickly, 3-4 years, and are already beginning to produce a good harvest. Hazelnuts or hazelnuts are generally the first thing to be planted under the conditions specified by the Customs Union. For these are even sticks for all kinds of forks, and other shovel handles, of which, under such conditions, you also need a lot.
Bushes - living in nature, not being able to eat fresh raspberries/agrus/currants is somehow wrong. They also need at least a couple of acres (which can be combined with some types of trees).
Yard - if you are planning at least a poultry yard for 2 dozen chickens, then you need at least 2 acres for them to run around, for a barn and a chicken coop - also about the same. The cellar must be dug out immediately as soon as there is hope for some kind of harvest - the cellar must be made at least 6x8 m, if you need to feed the family - taking into account the earthen embankment, you will get at least one hundred square meters for it. If you plan to have horses and carts, then the yard must be made large enough for the cart to turn around - because you will have to turn around often - and pulling the cart manually back and forth is not an activity for the faint of heart. Plus add a hayloft (my parents have a 5x6 hay loft, but with a large number of living creatures, there was not enough hay (the height of the hayloft is 5 m).
Granary - in our house now in a separate room about 5x6, but the grain is mostly in iron barrels from fuel oil, because mice are such an evil that it is not so easy to fight. Plus you need at least one large shed for storing and drying boards (in our house it’s 6x9) plus for storing firewood (2x3).
I hope for the vehicle it appears approximately what area is needed for what tasks? I took the area and yield from black soil.
I apologize for the many letters
pathologist 11-10-2013 13:32
quote: In Russia, to what extent are mountains considered farmland?
then let's start from the beginning.
What is agriculture?
This is agriculture (from here it follows what crops grow depending on the climate - vegetable growing, grains or legumes, viticulture in the Caucasus and Crimea, gardening, etc.)
cattle breeding also belongs (if this is news to you) to rural hoe-vu (this is steppe livestock farming of horses, cows, sheep, goats, camels (they are not only in deserts). In the mountains, sheep breeding is also bullshit. Where, from the introduction, you can understand what a person is going to do to earn our daily bread?
etc. etc. I studied at the Agricultural Institute at the Faculty of Viticulture and Fruit Growing, so in addition to this there were a dozen different faculties and all of them related to agriculture.
quote: Regardless of his greed, the layout exists.
quote: Do the Chinese have complete natural self-sufficiency?
no, of course not, but if you take the land area from it, calculate (find it in a reference book) the area of arable land used regularly and then divide it by the number of inhabitants of the earth, we get the average amount of land for the necessary existence. (This is for those who like to count) but as is well known on the map it’s smooth, everything and the numbers seem to agree, but it doesn’t always turn out the way you want, then the livestock began to die due to a disease, or the harvest was destroyed by hail.
but this figure will be as approximate as the introductory one itself. because I didn’t ask the question of how much food a person needs per year, for some reason I was puzzled, and further flights of fancy stem from incomprehensibility. If someone understands something, let him explain it to me.
Ramil 11-10-2013 14:30
quote: Originally posted by Corporal Barrier:
In Russia, to what extent are mountains considered farmland?
You don’t have to go far: the Caucasus, the Urals.
It’s especially fun to watch goats grazing, how a Bashkir runs across a field, then climbs a mountain, then tries to drive several dozen goats off a cliff. From a vertical cliff, which is the only one for several tens of kilometers around (the rest is meadows, including floodplains). You can get dirty. Instead of a Bashkir, you can also look at a Chuvash or Mari
pathologist 11-10-2013 15:09
and I also forgot the most important question, WHAT is survival for? and for what period of time? There can be many reasons for leaving this “nourishing” area. like a flood or just a forest fire. Central Russia means exactly this. it could be some kind of disease or simply weather conditions (temperature, too hot, too wet, too sunny).
Therefore, there is no panacea, there was not and there cannot be!
nomadism (not in the sense of wandering as in Mongolia there is no base for this, i.e. horses, grazing areas) walking and mowing grass (even legumes like alfalfa, etc.) this is absurd, a waste of time and effort; northern peoples don’t mow anything; they just got used to it to living conditions, they drive the reindeer to where they FIND MONSTERS FOR THEMSELVES.
take the Caucasus, animal husbandry (hence the appropriate nutrition and life expectancy).
the shepherd goes after the flock every day, essentially does nothing, drinks wine in the privle, eats pita bread, and eats shish kebab from the wolves, the “Caucasian” shepherd dogs protect (not all year, of course, at the end of January in February, calving sheep require care before lambing)
Well, that's it, in general terms.
pathologist 11-10-2013 15:22
quote: You don’t have to go far: the Caucasus, the Urals.
So, if a person is far from... even the concept, or more precisely, the idea of agriculture, then he needs to plunge headlong into this area himself. and if, after sitting in the city, they decide how to conduct agriculture, then this is how it turns out, in our ministries they sit and decide how we won’t die of hunger (where to get a loan again).
and this is how things are not only in agriculture, but also in education (my mother is a teacher, and not an ordinary one, but who has reached the position of deputy director for commercial affairs with 28 years of experience, but she complains that what is happening with education in our country is no funding or support, only inspections )
Corporal Barrier 11-10-2013 15:39
quote: Originally posted by pathologist:
In Russia, to what extent are mountains considered farmland?Are you even on topic or should I argue?
So finally, give us some numbers about farmland in the mountains? Or is it just an artistic whistle about learning? For example, I can say about the Altai Mountains - there is such a minuscule amount of arable land there that you can give up on them. I've also seen cows grazing in the mountains - that's how a goat gives more milk.
quote: Originally posted by pathologist:
exist then it exists but who receives it?
Start a separate topic for yourself about surviving in the ranks there. How you and someone else were underfed, somewhere out there. Here the question is about the question of norms, and nothing more, take them as a starting point.
quote: Originally posted by pathologist:
take the Caucasus
This particular one is the least interesting.
quote: Originally posted by pathologist:
so he needs to plunge headlong into this area himself
Yes, somehow I just don’t advertise my knowledge of all aspects of this economy. And when you say something on the topic, this is so much for this and that, but if you say something else, then here it is for you! Otherwise, you’re crazy with your keyboard, I can’t keep up with you...
pathologist 11-10-2013 15:53
Can you still flood? if a person is crippled, how much land does he need (i.e., in general, does this imply the size of the territory of the donors?) or how to calculate?
Regarding agriculture, the disabled person also uses not only the holy spirit.
and churches? they don’t have arable land and don’t go anywhere (well, not counting the crazy Catholics who bring “bright, good, endless” into the world
and the “evil” neighbors themselves will come to them (well, it’s not a fact that they won’t take your head off, although you’re eating on the ball, you can also sign up a “party” of 5-10 people, you don’t have to advertise that this is your family, you can sign up as Levites singing the praises of the Lord.
but even when engaged in agriculture, no one is insured).
and they themselves will advise how to act and live further (doesn’t remind you of anything?) Well, I mean, it’s an introductory question. so it’s better to be free from public opinion, and act according to the situation,
Corporal Barrier 11-10-2013 15:56
quote: Originally posted by yadershchik:
In order to feed, for example, 4 cattle, I had to mow a field of 4-5 hectares all summer, sown with excellent clover.
I don’t understand, is this how you prepare for the winter somewhere?
quote: Originally posted by yadershchik:
for a couple of pigs - you need almost nothing - from a garden of 50 acres they are fully fed.
Damn you pigs... Are they mastodons or did they live in the open air in the cold? 20 acres for two pieces is quite enough.
pathologist 11-10-2013 16:15
quote: Yes, somehow I just don’t advertise my knowledge of all aspects of this economy. And when you say something on the topic, this is so much for this and that, but if you say something else, then here it is for you! Otherwise, you’re crazy with your keyboard, I can’t keep up with you...
agree! about the keyboard. but about agriculture (specifically, farming). I can share my experience.
Last year I spent the whole summer at the dacha. I “privatized” several dozen tomato seedlings in a field located 500m from the dacha plot. as a result: on the field, tomatoes do not fit into the palm of your hand (where
then 15-20 cm in diameter), but mine withered (watering was similar, drip around the clock. They just dried out!)
This is what eternal youth is like. I didn’t plant anything this year. in a field with the same conditions, a tomato with a weak nose (compared to the past) and an onion are also not particularly ugly, carrots are the same crap. so we can talk endlessly about the amount of land, and Khrushchev was also going to... plant corn.
and if you still remember Andropov, you would write in your profile that the thread is more adequate. otherwise it smacks of childhood, or some kind of code. Are you playing spy? Will they figure it out and start to torture? Have you heard about the elusive Joe? It's about me! not because they can’t catch him, but because no one needs us.
Corporal Barrier 11-10-2013 16:39
yadershchik 11-10-2013 17:02
quote: Originally posted by kalmuik:
Milk yield in Kalmykia is, in principle, 2-4 times less than in the Middle Zone.
Climate + breed + conditions of detention. Milk was sold in the neighborhood (after all, the city center). The surplus was used for cheese. A relatively large number of livestock made it possible to carry out even primitive selection and played the role of a “passbook.” With the revival of livestock farming in Kalmykia in the early 2000s, the profitability of the farm began to fall (feed became more expensive, milk and meat became relatively cheaper). This was one of the reasons that in 2003 they sold almost the entire farm (well, they left a couple of heads of cattle for their mother) and moved to Lipetsk. Here, the money received from the sale allowed us to feel confident financially.
Then I take off my hat to your hard work - it’s really VERY HARD, those who haven’t done this will never understand, you have to feel it. And you have to be a very hard-working person to pull this off.
yadershchik 11-10-2013 17:35
quote: Originally posted by yadershchik:
In order to feed, for example, 4 cattle, I had to mow a field of 4-5 hectares all summer, sown with excellent clover.
quote: Originally posted by Corporal Barrier:
[b]
I don’t understand, is this how you prepare for the winter somewhere?
I wrote a lot there - in general, in a field that was 4-5 hectares in area, I went every day and mowed about half a ton of clover a day. about half of this was used to feed 4 cattle, goats, sheep, etc., the rest was thrown into the hayloft - there about a third of the hayloft was thrown (by area) then another third and three days later the next batch was laid on the completely dried hay - in general in such a simple way I prepared hay over the summer.
quote: Originally posted by Corporal Barrier:
Damn you pigs... Are they mastodons or did they live in the open air in the cold? 20 acres for two pieces is quite enough.
Well, it depends on how you look at it - if you don’t take into account grain, corn and other things that we get in addition to the garden, then 50 acres is enough for a family plus pigs. If you feed the pigs only from your own garden, I think the same 50 acres will come out, because for the winter you need a lot of beets, grain, corn, and in the summer you have to pick quite a lot of nettles - in short, not so little is needed if you have NOTHING AT ALL buy. No, you can, of course, feed a piglet from 5 acres, but in terms of weight and size parameters it will not quite meet the standards accepted in Ukraine)), in other words, it will be barely alive
Ecology of knowledge. Science and discoveries: Let's imagine that a global catastrophe has occurred and we are forced to liberate the Earth. How long will it take to get to the most Earth-like planet we've discovered so far?
Let's imagine that a global catastrophe has occurred and we are forced to liberate the Earth. How long will it take to get to the most Earth-like planet we've discovered so far?
For starters, the most Earth-like planet discovered is Kepler 452b. We know about this planet thanks to the Kepler space telescope, launched in March 2009, which has been hunting for planets for the past 5 years. Kepler 452 is a Sun-like star hurtling through space 1,400 light-years from Earth. It's worth noting that this star has the same surface temperature as our Sun and almost the same energy output.
Overall, both the Sun and Kepler 452 are G-type yellow dwarfs. This means that Kepler 452's habitable zone (the region around the star in which liquid water could theoretically exist) is almost identical to the sun's. And what’s interesting is that in this zone a planet revolves around this star, the path of which is almost identical to Earth’s, Kepler 452b. This planet occupies almost the same place as the Earth in the solar system.
It follows that the length of the year on this planet is almost identical to ours, and the amount of energy that the planet receives is strikingly similar to what the Earth receives. Kepler 452b completes its orbit in 385 days and receives only 10% more energy than Earth.
Scientists can't measure Kepler 452b's mass directly, but findings based on modeling indicate the planet is only five times more massive than Earth (almost 60% larger). This convincingly indicates that this solid-state world is similar to ours, and this is very good (after all, we do not yet have the technology to live on gas giants). In addition, the gravity will be twice that of Earth. This may make life on the planet much more difficult, but overall it does not make life impossible (if we can get there).
A little math
First, let's define what a light year is. This is the distance that light can travel in one year (obvious, right?). Light travels about a billion kilometers per hour. This means that light travels 9.5 trillion kilometers per year. 1400 light years is approximately 13.3 quadrillion kilometers. If we launched our fastest probe, New Horizons, which is currently traveling at 50,000 km/h, it would take 26 million years to reach its new destination.
By this point, all life on our planet will most likely become extinct.
By comparison, modern humans evolved approximately 200,000 years ago. We left Africa, at the earliest, 130,000 years ago. These numbers are nowhere near the 26 million years it will take us to reach Kepler 452b.
But what if we develop better technology? Will we ever be able to fly faster?
In fact, it won't get much better. Even if we travel at the speed of light (the fastest possible speed at the moment), it will take us 1400 years to reach the desired planet. If our ancestors had gone to this world, they would have had to set out in 615 AD to get there by today.
Of course, traveling at that speed means time dilation comes into play. Thus, those on the ship will feel as if only a century has passed. But for the Universe (and everyone else in it), the flight will take 1,400 years. In the end, when our settlers arrive at their destination, if not the Universe, then the Solar System will change significantly.
Of course, there are other planets we can go to, some of them much closer. Alpha Centauri Bb, which is considered the closest planet to Earth outside our solar system, for example. It should orbit Alpha Centauri B, although this is not yet certain. And yet, if we assume its presence, it is located 4.37 light years from Earth. Traveling at the speed of light, we would get there in just over four years.
True, even if it is there, we are unlikely to want to visit it, since the planet is located very close to the parent star. It completes the orbit in 3 days and 5 hours. The planet is unbearably hot and cannot support any kind of life.
So let's just hope that there simply won't be a global catastrophe that could doom our solar system. At least we must settle on time. published
VI. Work in a notebook.
1. Task No. 4 (independently).
2. Task No. 6.
Familiarity with the names of the months of the year, their order and the months of each season.
The teacher can introduce students to the ancient names of the months (see Lesson Appendix below):
January is prosinets.
February - cut, fathom.
March - whistler, flyby.
April – Berezozol.
May is grass.
June is a black man.
July - Lipetsk.
August - sickle, cabbage.
September is deciduous.
November is a half-winter season.
December – jelly, winter road.
3. Task No. 11.
– How many months are marked on the clay tablet from Central Asia? (2 months.)
– And on a walrus tusk from the Far North? (4 months.)
4. Student messages “Knotted calendars and notches.”
– This is how Robinson Crusoe described his calendar in D. Defoe’s novel: “I dug a tetrahedral pillar into the ground. Every day I made a line on the edge of the post with a knife. The seventh line was made twice as big - it meant Sunday. An even larger line marked the beginning of each month.”
Such calendars were used by many tribes in Asia, America and Africa. Knot calendars were widely used by the peoples of northern Siberia (Yakuts, Evenks, Mansi) at the end of the last century. Nowadays, such calendars are used by some tribes in East Africa, Guinea and Polynesia.
So, with the help of knots or notches, the ancient peoples managed to establish the approximate duration of the solar year.
^VII. Lesson summary.
– Is it possible to live without knowing time?
– Why does the change of day and night occur?
– What is a complete revolution of the Earth around its axis?
– How long does it take the Earth to revolve around the Sun?
– What is a “leap” year?
– Why are there 12 months in a year?
– Do all peoples of the Earth begin counting their years at the same time of year?
^ Homework: workbook, tasks No. 5, 7, 8, 9; task No. 10 is completed within a month; textbook (pp. 12–17).
Application
T. M. Andrianova
Open the calendar - January begins
Why did the first month of the year get this name? And not only him, but why are all the other months called that? Our students often ask us such questions. So, remember.
January. In the old days in Rus', January was called sechen, since it cuts the winter into two halves. The ancient Romans called this month January in honor of Janus, the god of the sun and light. They portrayed Janus as a man with two faces. One face is old and looks to the past, and the other is young and looks to the future. The number 300 was inscribed on the fingers of Janus' right hand, and 65 on the fingers of his left hand. 365 is the number of days in a year.
February. The name of the month February is Latin in origin. February in Ancient Rome ended the year, so at the end of the month the ancient Romans held a big holiday, at which they made sacrifices to the patron god of herds, Februs. Hence the name of the month. The Old Russian name for February is fierce. In February there is a lot of snow and there are severe frosts.
^ March. In Ancient Rome, March was the first month of the year and spring and was dedicated to Mars, the patron of fields and herds. The month was named after him.
April. The birthplace of the word “April” is Ancient Rome. It means "warm, sunny." In ancient times, our ancestors called this month pollen.
May– the name of the fifth month of the year, the last month of spring. It comes from the proper name Maya. This was the name of the goddess of earth and fertility in ancient Rome.
June. The first month of summer is named after the Roman goddess Juno. The Romans believed that Juno gave people rain and harvest, success and victory. She was considered the goddess of fertility.
^ July. The month was named July in honor of the outstanding Roman commander, politician and writer Gaius Julius Caesar.
August. The name of the month comes from the ancient Roman word "augustus", which means "majestic". This was the name of one of the emperors of Ancient Rome, after whom the month of August was named.
September. The name of the first month of autumn comes from the Latin word “september”, which means “seventh”. The ancient Romans' New Year began on March 1, so September was the seventh month.
October. This word is related to the words “octave”, “octet”. All of them are derived from the Latin "octo", which means "eight". An octave combines eight notes, an octet is an ensemble of eight people.
^ November. This month gets its name from the Latin word “newem”, which means “nine”.
December. Name December cognate with the word "decimeter". Both of these words are derived from the Latin “decem”, which means “ten”. A decimeter is a tenth of a meter, and December was the tenth month for the Romans. This name was preserved, although the month became the twelfth, the last of the year. In ancient times in Rus', December was called jelly. December paves, December nails, December nails.
Now you know the names of all the brothers from this riddle:
twelve brothers
They wander after each other,
They don't bypass each other.
^
Lesson 3
Device for counting time.
What kind of watches did man invent?
Goals:
– consolidate knowledge about periodically recurring changes in nature (change of day and night, change in the appearance of the Moon, change of seasons) and the concepts of “day”, “week”, “month”, “year”;
– introduce different types of watches created by man;
– develop the ability to use a watch;
– develop observation skills;
– cultivate accuracy and safety when performing practical work;
– cultivate an understanding of the need to value time.
Equipment: various types of clocks (photos of them) - hourglass, cuckoo clock, solar, water, electronic, quartz; candle, pencil, ruler; table "Flower clock".
During the classes
^ I. Organizational moment.
Headlong
The minute is short.
But in a minute you can
Find a star
The solution of the problem…
And a rare mineral
which is still
Nobody opened...
N. Yurkova
^ II. Checking homework.
1. Frontal survey.
– What is a day?
– What determines the length of the day?
– Why is the length of the day the same in all places on Earth?
– Why do seasons change and repeat?
– Why are there 12 months in a year?
2. Students’ stories about how ancient peoples kept track of time.
3. Test “Counting time”.
^ 1) How long is a day?
a) 24 hours; c) 365 days;
b) 12 hours; d) 366 days
2) What is the name of the time of day when the position of the Sun in the sky is highest?
a) morning; c) evening;
b) noon; d) night.
^ 3) How long does it take for the Earth to turn around its axis?
a) year; per month;
b) day; d) season.
4) What word combines the concepts “morning”, “day”, “evening”, “night”?
a) day; per month.
^ 5) How long does it take for the Earth to revolve around the Sun?
a) 28 days; c) 365 days 6 hours;
b) 24 hours; d) 365 days.
6) How long will it take for the Moon to appear again?
a) 7 days; c) 30 days;
b) 28 days; d) 24 hours.
^ III. Lesson topic message.
– Guess the riddles:
1) Eremushka has been going on all century,
No sleep for him, no nap.
He keeps an exact count of his steps,
But it still won’t budge.
(Watch.)
2) Here in a circle, one after another
Two girlfriends are walking together.
Without pushing, without interfering,
The big one is moving fast...
(Big clock hand.)
– Today we will find out what kind of watches were invented by man.
^ IV. Practical work.
Workbook (task No. 12).
– The first simple device used by the ancient Greeks was the gnome.
– Give four answers to one riddle:
With letter ^D I'm stepping forward
From dawn to dawn.
WITH P I’m hanging around, I don’t know why.
WITH T I help people
Even in the intense summer heat.
WITH L I always bother everyone,
You are not friends with me.
(Day, stump, shadow, laziness.)
– How does the shadow change during the day, that is, depending on the position of the Sun above the horizon?
Experience. In order for students to understand the operation of a sundial, activity number 12 should be completed in the workbook. In this experiment, the change in the position of the Sun (candle) above the horizon and the change in the length of the shadow depending on the position of the light source are simulated. (Observation 1 is best done in class, observation 2 is best done at home.)
As a result of the experiment, students establish that the length of the shadow depends precisely on the height of the candle. After this, the students, based on two experiments, draw an important conclusion: if you measure the length of the shadow at noon from the same object throughout the year, you can judge how the position (height) of the Sun in the sky changes at different times of the year.
Notebook entry:
^ The higher the candle, the shorter the shadow.
The lower the candle, the longer the shadow.
– How does the direction of the shadow change during the day?
At noon, the length of the shadow is shortest. The longest shadow will be on December 22, and the shortest will be on June 22. Based on such observations, our ancestors determined when the new year began. And the change in direction and length of the shadow during the day was used to construct a sundial.
^ V. Learning new material.
1. Acquaintance with the variety of watches and the history of their creation by man.
– Why is a sundial inconvenient? What is their main disadvantage? (It is impossible to use them when the sky is covered with clouds.)
“That’s why people, without giving up on sundials, have long invented others. In the old days, in the evening and at night, time was determined by the decrease in the height of a burning candle, as well as with the ancient hourglass that has survived to this day.
Observing the behavior of plants and animals during the day helped people keep track of time. This beautiful flower clock was planted by the great Swedish botanist Carl Linnaeus. It was a flowerbed in which the flowers opened one by one in the morning, as if showing the time of day.
A pre-prepared student reads a poem:
You see they're coming
Flower clock…
At five the poppies drink dawn
Drops of dew.
At six the day dawns
Flax blue flower.
The violet will burst into flames at seven.
At eight o'clock - bindweed.
– One of the secrets of nature is the flower clock. Different flowers open and close their petals at different times of the day.
– What clock is the poem talking about?
Student. There is a vessel standing, water is flowing,
And the minutes count with her.
The water is flowing, the clock is ticking,
They look like a stream.
And at night they guard time,
And during the day, of course, too.
(Water clock.)
– Why are water clocks inconvenient?
– Explain how the expressions that came down to us from our ancestors arose: “time is running out,” “time is running out,” “time is over.”
^ 2. History of invention, structure and variety of pendulum clocks.
– The water, sand and sundials were inconvenient. And then a thousand years ago, in the 10th century, a Spanish monk named Herbert came up with an amazing mechanism. Herbert wound a cord around a large wooden shaft, and tied a heavy weight to the cord. The weight pulled down, the shaft slowly turned, and with it the needle crawled across the dial. People who saw Herbert's invention were afraid. "Infernal mechanism!" - they decided. Herbert was accused of witchcraft and expelled from Spain. While in exile, Herbert built a mechanical clock on a tower in the German city of Magdeburg. The residents of Magdeburg really liked this watch. They showed the time in any weather. It is a pity that they have not survived to this day. But other, also very old, but pendulum clocks have survived. This is the Big Ben clock in England. They are, imagine, more than seven hundred years old! Big Ben is the oldest and most respected clock in England.
About 400 years ago in Italy, a student named Galileo Galilei once attended a service in a cathedral. He noticed that two chandeliers suspended from the ceiling were slowly swaying. They swayed evenly and for quite a long time. Galileo thought that a pendulum could be used as a clock, but the great scientist did not have time to construct a pendulum clock. A hundred years later, this was done by the Dutch scientist Christiaan Huygens.
In modern mechanical watches, the pendulum is an oscillating wheel with a spring.
To make a simple pendulum stopwatch, you need to take a rope approximately 25 cm long and attach a weight to it.
In 1511, in the German city of Nunberg, a mechanical watch was invented with a spring that was tightly wound, and, trying to straighten out, it moved the wheels of the clock mechanism. All the watchmakers began making oil watches. Less is better. What has now begun! Craftsmen make watch cases very beautiful: in the shape of a box, and in the shape of a ball, an egg, an onion. Decorated with carvings, figurines and pendants. Medallion watches, bracelet watches and even brooch watches appeared.
The most beautiful clocks were built in France. This is the clock of Strasbourg Cathedral. They are the size of a three-story house, they have several towers and dials. The body is covered with gilding, wooden flowers and stars. Below the main dial there is a small planetarium globe depicting the sky above Strasbourg. Here you can see the movement of stars and planets, the eclipse of the Sun. Just like in real heaven!
In our country, the first tower clock was made in 1404 by the monk Serbin. They were installed in the Moscow Kremlin on the highest tower. This tower stood on the site of the present Spasskaya and was called Frolovskaya. It was lower and made of wood. The first Russian watches did not run accurately and did not strike. Therefore, they invited the “English” watchmaker Christopher Galovey. Russian watchmakers helped him build a new clock “with a clock,” that is, with a bell chime. Such clocks are called chimes.
The ancient Kremlin chimes occupy three floors, and their largest bell weighs more than two tons. The movement of this clock is regulated by a pendulum the size of a person and weighing more than thirty kilograms. The watch is wound to 3 meters 28 centimeters. The melodic chime of the bell is heard every quarter of an hour.
In modern electronic watches, the pendulum is made up of oscillating charged particles (electrons).
– Draw the reading of an electronic clock in your workbook (task No. 15).
– The most accurate clocks in our time are atomic clocks.
^VI. Lesson summary.
– Look at the pictures in the textbook on p. 20. What clock is shown here?
– How are they arranged?
– Solve the crossword puzzle and read the key phrase.
1. The name of an ancient watch used by doctors.
2. Clock created by Swedish botanist Carl Linnaeus.
3. Clock with a pendulum and weights.
4. What “clocks” did the chronicler monks use?
5. Modern clock with a pendulum - oscillating charged particles.
6. A tall vertical pole in a sundial.
7. Watch using water.
Answers: Sand. 2. Floral. 3. Mechanical. 4. Candle. 5. Electronic. 6. Gnomon. 7. Water.
Key phrase: Save time!